^M00:00:05 [ Music ] ^M00:00:28 >> The following program may contain strong language and brief nudity, but don't get your hopes up. After all, this is Public Access TV. ^M00:00:38 [ Rooster Crowing ] ^M00:00:42 >> Hi folks. Welcome to the Gene and Dave show. Dave can't be here right now because he's on vacation, yet again. So I've asked my twin brother Gene, the Quad Father, to fill in for Dave. Thanks for being here today, Gene. Thanks, Gene. Pleasure to be here. Today's show is all about traumatic brain injury. A good friend of ours, Cheryl Green, had a traumatic brain injury a few years back. This caused some real problems for her. But it was hard for me to understand her disability because, well, for as long as I've known Cheryl, she's always been highly intelligent, highly talented, really motivated, energetic. ^M00:01:47 And when she said she was traumatically brain injured and couldn't function well, I just couldn't understand it. But you'll understand it better when Cheryl explains to us the problems she had when she tried to cook a fish. Let's listen. ^M00:02:12 Hi folks. We're here today with Cheryl Green. Cheryl's visiting from Portland, but she used to live here in Austin. And she's been a fine member of the arts community for a number of years. And Cheryl does a lot with video. Cheryl, what are you doing now? Tell us about your show. Tell us how it got started, and well, we'd just love to hear it all. >> Okay. So long story short, I got a traumatic brain injury in 2010. And a few months after that, or some unspecified time that I don't remember, I was invited to do a project in Portland called No One Wants to See the Wires, which actually is almost identical to Actual Lives Austin, or the other Actual Lives where you get together in a workshop format and everybody writes their own piece and we work them out together and then have a professional public performance. So I got to do that. And at the time I started that, I was feeling too impaired to prepare a live performance. So I thought I would just audio record a monologue and just, you know, play a CD, turn the lights on and just play a CD. Because that's how I prefer things to be, lights out, just sitting still. But then one day I tried to cook a piece of fish. Maybe you've heard about this? >> I've seen the video. >> Yeah. >> It's pretty funny, folks. >> Yeah. I tried to cook a piece of fish. And I -- it's so awful. It was terrible. >> Well, tell us about -- how does the brain injury manifest itself? What sort of things do you notice or would other people notice in you? >> Um, the list is so enormously long that the best way for me to do it is to tell you what went wrong when I tried to make the piece of fish. >> Okay, let's do that. >> So, one thing is that I didn't know the steps. I couldn't break down the whole cooking task into steps. I didn't even know that there were steps to break it down into. So I couldn't even -- I couldn't see that what I was doing had a big picture and details. And then I got out the fish. And I knew you're supposed to put salt and pepper on both sides. But I didn't know how to get it on both sides. And I couldn't visualize in my mind, pick the fish up and flip it over. I couldn't even understand. I'm like, you can't see both sides at once. I only see one side. And so I couldn't imagine what wasn't happening. I couldn't visualize what wasn't right there. And I got out all these forks and I had this row of forks. And I was pacing back and forth and I was crying. And I just couldn't -- I couldn't figure out how to solve the problem. I didn't know that I was the problem. I thought it was the fish. And I got more and more worked up without realizing it. So, emotionally worked up and unable to calm down. So all of those are brain injury symptoms. I finally decided, I'll just put salt and pepper on one side. And I don't know what's going to happen. So seasoned the fish, put it in the pan with some oil and then just stood there, and stood there. Ah, then I turned on the stove. >> Waiting for it to cook. >> Yeah, waiting for it to cook. So then I turned on the stove. Again, I don't know what the steps are or how to do them in order. Turn on the stove and cook for a few minutes. And then I thought, oh wait. You get the spatula out and you pick it up and you flip it over. I remember that. I remember that. Okay. It's coming back to me. So I grab the spatula and I get the fish. And I thought, it would be much more fun to drop it in from a great height. >> Into the oil. >> Into the oil. So poor decision making, impulsivity, and just -- I mean, why would you be bored with how you make fish? Like, just do it. So I picked it up and I dropped it from as high as my arm would reach. >> Oh. >> And the boiling oil splattered all over my face. I got grease burns on my hands, grease burns on my face. I'm crying and crying and crying and pacing. And it took 45 minutes to cook one fillet of salmon. >> Oh, and fish usually goes fairly quickly. >> Yeah, but-- >> So 45 minutes is -- >> Yeah, because that whole process of trying to get the fish into the pan and then turn the pan on, it was just ridiculous. And so after that happened, I went to my journal and I wrote down everything that happened because that's what I did back then. And if you write down everything you do wrong, maybe you'll do it right the next time, which is not true. >> Hmm. >> It just gives you a journal of everything you did wrong. ^M00:07:00 >> Were you not able to remember the things you did wrong? >> I don't know why I was obsessed with writing down everything. >> [Inaudible] okay. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. I was just obsessed with writing in my journal every single thing I did wrong or every single thing that was hard. If I didn't do it wrong, it was something somebody else did that was hard and it wouldn't have been hard before the brain injury. So I documented everything. I needed proof. >> Did you ever write down it was the fish's fault? >> No. I felt guilty putting the blame outside myself like that. So -- >> Well, that's very mature. >> Thank you. I'm characteristically mature. So I wrote it out. And sometime later, again, I don't remember. No idea how much later, I thought that would make a funny film. You could do like a Rachel Ray cooking show out of that. [Inaudible] that I did. So I sat down and in 10 minutes I had cranked out a fake daytime cooking show where -- Cooking with Brain Injury is what I called it -- just showing a slice of life. Like this is how much can go wrong for a person with brain injury who looks fine on the outside. These are the kinds of ridiculous things that go wrong. And so I wrote that script. I brought it to No One Wants to See the Wires. And we filmed. And I had a friend, a professional film maker. And so she filmed it and edited it for me for free. >> And it was big hit. >> I was a big hit. Well, what's funny is that Bill, my co-star, who also doesn't get anything right in the show [inaudible]. >> And Bill also has a brain injury? >> Yes. Yes, he does. ^M00:08:51 >> Bill doesn't get things right all the time? >> Right. In the show, I don't remember what I was going to say. Um -- wow. What did you last ask me? >> Well, >> And don't edit this out. Because this is what happens to me when I talk to people. >> Oops! Cheryl just had a minor memory lapse. Hey, we've all been there. Yes, but that's all part of traumatic brain injury. And then you ask her, how is it she had trouble cooking a fish, but she could produce a documentary, a very complicated documentary? And here's how Cheryl explains that. ^M00:09:38 It seems to me to be a quantum leap between not being able to cook fish and then producing a video. And she just recently made a documentary. >> Yes, yes. Okay, yeah. >> The technical aspects involved in that are huge. >> Yeah. >> And so I'm trying to understand how is it that a person who has trouble cooking fish could do a documentary? That's -- >> Great question. I can answer that. Part number one to that answer is four years have passed. >> Okay. >> That makes a big difference. So in the process of writing Cooking with Brain Injury and rehearsing it and setting everything up for it, that started to give me some of my skills back. >> Oh, okay. >> Because they just said sit at home. Sit at home and rest. Don't do anything. Your skills will come back. And you're -- how will your organizational skills come back if you never have to organize anything? >> Yeah, I know. >> I don't believe them when they say that just rest and everything will come back. But being in No One Wants to See the Wires was completely structured, same time of day, same day of the week, same location, same people, same work. And so that alone takes a ton off you plate. And you can just concentrate on what do I need to do? Nothing else is going to change. And so I got a lot of practice on things, which improved me. And then I went on and made another film. And that's just more practice. And then you get more confidence. And also time passes and you know, some people get better. And I have gotten quite a bit better, partly from the practice, partly from time. So the other answer to the question is how do you go from not being able to cook a piece of fish to making a documentary? Well, half of my footage was blurry. Some of it -- >> I don't think you're the only film maker that's had blurry footage. >> No, I'm probably. But with the level of camera I've got, with the level of tools on that camera, a lot of the footage was either blue or it looked like it was filmed in the fiery bowels of Mars. What else? Sometimes I couldn't figure out to turn my microphone on even though it was the same one I'd been using earlier. I didn't set the lights up right. I didn't put the camera in the right place. So -- ^M00:12:14 >> So you folks watching out there take notes. Making a show is not simple. >> It's not. >> There's lighting, there's sound. And there's constant update of equipment. And you're switching stuff out here and there. >>Yeah. It's a lot -- it's a lot for anyone to keep track of. But the cognitive impairments that were the reason I couldn't cook the fish are not gone. And they are the reason that I don't remember to focus the camera. I don't remember to set the white balance. I put the camera in the wrong place and then I move it. And then I focus it and then I move it back and then I don't refocus it. And mistakes. Showing up at the wrong time. Showing up with the wrong equipment. So yeah, I made a documentary. But it was a struggle. It was very, very hard in ways that would not have been hard before. So, yeah. >> Well thank God you tried to cook a fish four years ago. Because without that, who knows where you would be right now. >> I'd still be lying in bed recovering. >> How do you keep track of all that stuff? >> I don't have a full time job, so I have time. >> But still, I mean -- >> It's hard. >> For anyone it would be hard. >> Right. >> And with a brain injury it's got to be -- >> It's harder, yeah. But you do it. I mean, when -- I mean, what do you say when someone says: Well, how did you climb Mt. Everest? You'd say you did it, right? >> Yeah. >> It was hard and you did it. >> It was hard, yeah. And we did it. >> Yeah. So I'm not -- >> There was a lot, a lot involved in it. >> Yeah. >> So I guess it's the same as your -- >> Well, I'm not comparing my world online and in film with you climbing Mt. Everest, but it's the same thing where it just -- I know it seems indescribable or hard to imagine how it gets done, but when it's your life, you do it, right? >> Yeah. >> You climbed Mt. Everest. You scuba dive. You travel the world, because that's what you want to do. So you make it happen. >> That's my passion. >> Yeah, so. Same way. A lot of crying. A lot of naps. A lot of naps. ^M00:14:23 >> Cheryl's done a lot of work and we've listed up here to some of her works here for you to see. Now you can also look at these Web links on our Web page. If you look at the show summary for traumatic brain injury, you'll see a listing of these links that you can click on. Just look for the traumatic brain injury show. ^M00:14:58 Now we discuss how the news media portrays people with disabilities. >> Yeah. >> Now you mentioned media representation of people with disabilities. >> Yes. >> Have you seen the show Ironside? >> I haven't. Hmm-mm. >> Well, it's no longer on the air. >> I noticed. I heard. >> It ran for four episodes. It was about a police detective who became a paraplegic. It was a horrible show. I think it was just poorly written. And I think a lot of people in the disability community didn't like the way they portrayed the guy, the actor with supposedly a disability. >> Mm-hmm. >> But we'll change that. And the folks like you and I out in the -- >> That's right. >> People get a more realistic idea of what we're like. >> That's right. Absolutely. I mean, that guy didn't even have a disability. >> Yeah. >> Do not tell me -- >> Right, right. >> -- you cannot find a good looking black man actor who uses a wheelchair in his daily life. You really can't find him? Come on. >> And, I mean, there's thousands of vets coming back every year. Certainly one of them's got to be talented enough to do a job like that. >> Absolutely. >> And with a military background, you would know -- be able to portray a policeman, so -- >> That's right, the work ethic. They take direction well. It's just ridiculous. And you hear over and over, well we don't cast actual disabled actors because they wouldn't be up for the rigors of -- well, first of all, they're not acting disabled. They already have the disability. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Second of all, why do you think that all we do is lie around and nap? >> Mm-hmm. >> I mean, I nap a lot, but it's not my primary activity. But I have heard that so many times, well, you know, they wouldn't be up for the rigor. Ask us if we'd be up for the rigors of the job. Some people would be. But, yeah, that's -- that's become my main drive with making films is accurate representations because it is people with disabilities making and staring in my films. I don't do crip drag and I don't have non-disabled people come in and write a script and I perform it. It's all from inside. >> But in the area of brain injury, I'm thinking there's got to be a lot of -- a huge spectrum of abilities and disabilities and -- >> Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. >> So it would be hard to generalize and -- >> Yeah, I agree, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. >> So that's the message, folks. And you're talking with someone with brain injury. It could be any one of a number of things to expect. >> Most likely I would expect a wild card. I'd be prepared for that. That's the most common thing. >> Expect the unexpected. >> Expect the unexpected, yeah. And more than anything, expect that we can accomplish things. I would like that to be the default assumption. Now I know -- >> Absolutely. >> I'm considered high functioning, if you want to use a term like that. I think it's clear. I live on my own. >> It's kind of square to be high-functioning [inaudible]. >> Yeah [laughs]. I have a lot of friends who live in a residential facility that's staffed 24 hours a day because they need a level of care that they can't provide for themselves all on their own because they have more severe impairments than I have. But I still would challenge people to have your default assumption the first time to meet them is that they can do things. Not everything. We're not superhuman and we have limitations like anybody. But I'm tired of the assumption that, oh, brain injury, oh, ah! Oh, you can't do anything. >> Well, every time I read a news story about someone with disability, it's always someone with disability or so-and-so accomplished this despite the fact they had a disability. Well, for God's sake, folks. Give us some credit once in a while and just say: This guy did it. Oh, and by the way, he has a disability. >> And. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, because you scuba and climb Everest and you edit videos the way that you do because you are who you are. So what is this despite thing? And it's not inherently a tragedy. >> Exactly, yeah. And what I'm afraid is is that kind of image percolates over into the employment area and the boss will think, well why should I hire someone with disabilities. Are they going to be able to do this despite their disability? No. Just -- and that kind of thinking just permeates every facet of society. >> It does. >> So the default should be someone can do something. >> Can. >> Until they tell you otherwise. >> Yeah. Or -- ^M00:20:01 But you've got to be realistic. Like, If I see you rolling out in the street, I'm not going to assume you can climb stairs, right? >> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. But I think cognitively, I think like, I take a wheelchair when I'm at the airport because my vision is messed up and my balance is messed up just enough that it causes a problem. And just the over stimulation of all the people drives berserk. And so if I take a wheelchair, I can close my eyes and someone will push me through the airport and then everybody's happier because I'm not throwing the temper tantrum, I'm not falling, I'm not crashing into people. But I have had a TSA agent bend down: Okay, so I'm going to have you go through that right -- I am nearly 40 years old and I've been flying since I was five. Why are you speaking -- So she saw the wheelchair and assumed I had very little cognitive capacity. Nasty. Why would you just assume that I can't understand or that I even need an explanation? I know what the security line is. Yet you're in my way. And it's so nasty when people see a wheelchair that they just assume can't, can't, can't anything. Can't -- and that has -- no. Mm-mm. Nasty. >> Yeah. But we will take advantage of it when we can. Get to the front of the lines at Disney for -- [laughs]. >> Not anymore. Now you have get that pass. >> Yeah. You've got to prove you have a disability to jump in like that. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It gets hard. But Dave should be here with us with Cheryl because he's got some fascinating stories. And -- ^E00:21:43 ^B00:21:48 >> Did you have a question or do you just want me to ramble about losing my friends? >> Have they readjusted to you? Or have you been able to help them understand your situation? Do you understand your situation better? >> That's a good question. I do understand my situation now. I am much more able to understand my situation. And more importantly, I'm able to recognize my behavior. Not always. I mean, my partner will still: Cheryl, do you realize that you're throwing food up on top of the cupboards? No. Oh, okay. I guess I am. And he's like: Okay, so you're agitated, right? Mm, yeah, I am agitated, okay. And then he questions me until I figure out what's wrong. But I don't really recognize that I'm throwing food up there. I don't recognize that it's a problem. I don't recognize that it's a weird behavior. But most of the time now, I do okay. But you asked -- you asked? >> Yeah, if your injury with your friends and such, if they could understand [inaudible]. >> No, I have pretty much a whole new set of friends now, to be honest. And some of that may be their -- a lot of that is my inflexibility. In -- ^M00:23:13 What was I going to say? >> Well, I imagine it's hard to say to your friends before the injury, to the ones that you had before you became injured: Hey, come back. I'm okay now, or I'm getting better or I understand things now. Or -- >> Well, it's not even that. You'd think it was that. What happened was getting involved in No One Wants to See the Wires. And I have been performing with different groups of -- different disabled artists and disability arts groups. I'd been performing with them in Portland as a non-disabled person, you know? Just mixed abilities arts. >> Okay, you were doing this before you became brain injured. >> Yes. Not film. I've never done film before, I but I was doing performance art, dance, theater. That's where I met you, Gene Rodgers. >> Did you get that, Dave? ^M00:24:05 So you -- >> So I had been doing that stuff on and off for many years. And I had acquaintances and some friends in the disability arts community. And I made the film and then I started getting more and more involved with these people who have had disabilities, either their entire lives or for many decades and who have a very strong sense of disability pride, disability rights, disability justice. And I got so -- I've been so involved with them that I find myself completely impatient with my old friends who are not into that stuff. And so I think a lot of it is me. And it is not even impairment-based at all. Anymore. It was back then. >> Yeah. >> I don't remember what the problem was. I don't remember why -- there's still a lot of stuff I don't remember. >> Mm-hmm. Would you say that's typical of people with brain injuries? >> Forgetfulness? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So it could be forgetfulness or it could be -- >> Or maybe even changing the type of people you hang with or are friends with. >> That's very common. Yeah. And a lot of times that is around impairment. So I had a friend who also had a brain injury. And we hung out a lot. And we enjoyed commiserating. But she told me one day that I exacerbated her symptoms too much. And she needed a break from me. And so that was about it. We tried to rekindle the friendship a few months later, and it just didn't work. And I'm like, I don't know -- if you give me direct instructions, like speak quieter, or, you know, sit further away from me, or let's set a timer and we stop talking every 10 minutes. Something that I could learn how to change, I would change that for a friend. But she didn't give me any instructions. She just said: You make me worse. And you know, I ran out -- >> That was -- excuse me. But that seems really unfair. >> Well, it is, but it isn't. I commend her for just being honest and taking care of her needs. You know what? You make me worse. Go away. Good for her. It was hard to understand, but there are other people who I'm around who increase my anxiety when I'm around them. Or they talk very loudly and that hurts my ears. So I could say they make me worse. I could say that. And so I spend less time with them, maybe. Or only do certain kinds of things with them. But yet, if you don't give me honest feedback about what I could do differently, I won't know what to do differently. >> Well, perhaps it could have been rephrased and rather than say you make me worse, say, you know, I'm a little bit uncomfortable around you. >> Sure, sure. Yeah, I agree that there are nicer ways to say it. But I am very guilty of saying things in the most un-nice way. And that's common with brain injury, too, is you get impulsive. And you want to say something and you just say it without stopping to think how it might make the other person feel. That's very common. >> I've got that problem, too. >> Yeah. [Laughs]. >> That inner voice that just -- there's supposed to be a filter there, but it doesn't always work. >> Doesn't always work. It really doesn't. So I have a bunch of new friends now, mostly because I enjoy being around people who are interested in disability pride. And who don't ever ask me to do things better than I can do them. My friends outside the disability community, I think, were constantly: Oh, you're doing better. Are you doing better? You seem to be improving. And I'm like, you know what? I've been discharged from the hospital for two years now. I was only in the hospital for a couple of hours. Like, stop talking to me like I'm a patient. >> Yeah. >> And so I got tired of that. That made me more angry. That made me feel worse. And then my friends in the disability community don't ever tell me -- well, once in a blue moon someone will say: Wow, you're doing a whole lot better. But they don't say it as just some empty compliment. They'll say, you know, the last time I saw you you were yelling all the time and crying all the time. And now you seem to have self-control. Really concrete stuff I can understand. And I appreciate that. ^E00:28:53 ^B00:28:58 >> I think one of the biggest compliments I get is when someone treats me like I'm normal. >> They go: Oh, you're so inspiring for me being out without your attendant. >> Right, right. >> It's not a compliment, is it? >> Right, yeah. Not at all, not at all. >> Yeah. >> But, yeah. >> So if you said: I went scuba diving last summer. Okay, I'll be you and you be the person who says the right -- a good thing. So hey I went scuba -- I'm Gene. I'm Gene Rodgers. I went scuba diving this summer. >> Oh, scuba diving. I wish I could do that. That sounds like such a great thing. So is that right? Did I say the right thing? >> Oh, no. I was asking you if that's the thing you'd like to hear. >> Oh, oh. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's what I would like to hear. >> Yeah. Or like, where'd you go? Oh, where'd you go scuba diving? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Like just, I'm Gene. I went scuba diving. >> Yeah. Like maybe we were friends, we just met online or yeah, online so that they can't see that I'm in a wheelchair. Or they may -- there's no assumptions about ability or disability, whatever. So it's just a -- what are your interests or what do you -- what kind of work do you do and things like that. >> But then people see the wheelchair. They see you. And it just suddenly changes. And I -- >> Oh, tell me. And then I've got to tell you a story. >> Okay. ^M00:30:24 >> Don't get anxious. >> I'm getting -- thank you. I'm getting anxious. I'm getting really upset about this because before -- and again, you can see I'm really not that impaired. >> Right. >> I really -- may impairments are mild. And in a calm situation like this, they really don't come out because I'm not taxed. I'm not under pressure. But, still, people's expectations for me have changed. So no longer will I do something great. But the expectation for me is that I will be comfortable and happy. And -- >> And God help you if you're not. >> Yeah, you're not trying hard enough! But I don't -- I get that much more. I just want for you to be comfortable. I hope that you're happy. I hope that things become easier for you. And I want someone to say to me: I hope you make a badass film and make lots of money and make a name for yourself. Like what they would have said if they didn't know I had a brain injury. >> Right. >> But now my biggest aspiration is to be comfortable and happy. >> Yeah. >> All right. What's your story? >> That's the best I can do. >> It's the best I can do to be happy. Got to take a nap. >> We were -- when I was in college we were traveling by van through Central America. And we picked up a French-Canadian hitchhiker along the way and German hitchhiker. >> Who doesn't? >> Exactly, especially in foreign countries. And we were in Panama and we met this -- we stopped at a fruit stand. And we met this Panamanian doctor there who got his medical training in Chicago. So he saw that we were Americans and wanted to meet us, talk with us, whatever. And I was sitting in the front seat of the van. My friends took me out of my manual wheelchair. They put me in the front seat of the van. So this guy didn't know I used a wheelchair. He just saw me sitting in the front of the van. And he -- he referred to me as Howard Hughes. Apparently I had some resemblance to Howard Hughes or something. But he kept referring to me as Howard Hughes. And he invited us to his brother's beach house and such, and spend the night there. So we go there. Someone opens the van door and they pick me up to set me in my wheelchair. So this is the first time the doctor's finding out that I use a wheelchair. And he said: Oh, I thought he was -- and the German hitchhiker says: He still is, Howard Hughes. And the doctor said: Yeah, he's Howard Hughes, of course. So it was a bonding moment. We all figured out that the wheelchair doesn't make any difference. So some people get it. >> Uh-huh. I've also been told -- and people do repeat this to me because I get anxious and I forget -- is that you have to be generous with people who don't get it, especially if you know there was a time earlier in your life when you didn't get it. >> Oh God, yeah. >> And so, you have to be generous with people the way you hope people are being generous -- you know, golden rule kind of stuff. But it's hard when you've -- like you acquired your disability. I acquired mine. And you forget that you didn't know about disability before that. And you're: Come on everybody. Catch up! Catch up! But you've got to slow down and be generous. Because otherwise if you do what I do, which is get agitated and pick fights, you've lost them. They're never going to listen. And yet there are plenty of people who still are never going to listen. They aren't going to try. >> I remember shutting people out when I was first injured. And later -- later, of course, I became enlightened. But I don't think it helped. Sorry I treated them the way I did. >> Oh, so you -- >> Because there was a time I didn't get it either. >> Yeah. >> It took me a while to figure things out. >> So you also went through a transition and had to get new friends because -- yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And you feel like that was because of how you treated them? ^M00:34:53 >> Well, it was a combination of things. I broke my neck when I was 17. I'd spent a year -- well a month in a hospital, 11 months in rehab. And that would have been my senior year in high school. And then from there, I went away to college. After I got out of the hospital and rehab I went away to college. So I think for a lot of people there's that transition in their life. They have the friends they had in high school and then when they go to college it's a new set of friends. >> Right. >> So there was that. And then when I was at college, when I first got there, I just figured, well, I'm going to study and I'm going to do what I've got to do. That was about it. That was the only thing I was thinking. My attendant was trying to get me out, you need to be active. And I just didn't -- I really didn't do it. And then something clicked and I met some folks that treated me like I was normal. And, all right! Let's go! You know, what? What? >> Were they people with disabilities, too? >> No. >> Oh, wow! >> No, not at all. >> Wow! >> It's sort of like, you know like saying: You want to go to spring break? And I go: Oh I never thought about it. Well, let's go. Okay. So that was the beginning of my change, I guess. >> Wow. That's a really cool story. And it's -- what's similar in our stories was that it was a group of people who knew themselves. And knew what they wanted and how to get it and brought you along. >> Exactly. >> Except in your case it was people without disabilities, and in my case it was a hunk of people with disabilities. But the same sort of thing, like oh, where do I go with this? What do I do now? This wasn't -- how I was planning to do this. Ah, just come with us. Oh, interesting. >> That was interesting how Cheryl noticed the difference between the two of us. She got adjusted to her disability with the help of friends with disabilities. In my case, I got adjusted to my disability with the help of friends who didn't have disabilities. So, it's kind of strange that way. But ultimately we both adjusted to our new lives. ^M00:37:16 Now Cheryl points out that some strangers will ask us the most intimate questions, sometimes bringing up the most traumatic incidents of our life. You'll want to listen to this. ^M00:37:33 Get to know us first, folks. Some of us are kind of sensitive about the questions we get asked. Take us out, buy us a beer and then we can talk. Let's take a look. >> I want to ask you about the most vulnerable part of your life. Or, I want to ask you something terrible that's happened to you. First of all, people assume -- >> Let me rekindle those horrible memories for you. >> Right. It's like -- everyone I meet who is outside of the disability community -- oh, you had a brain injury? How did it happen? Okay, I know that you're curious. And that's a good thing for a human to be curious. But have you stop -- we are the ones who are accused of not considering others' feelings. You just asked me to reflect back on something that was traumatic. Now, emotionally it wasn't traumatic, right? It probably was at the time. I don't know. I don't remember. But I can tell the story now without being re-traumatized by it. But what if I was re-traumatized by it? And what gives people the right to ask: What's wrong with you? Do I ask you -- do I go up to you and ask you what's wrong with you? >> And folks, to put this in type of perspective -- >> I forgot the camera was on. >> Let's assume that you're talking to a veteran that just returned from Afghanistan or wherever who had his legs blown off by an IED, an improvised explosive device. Would you say: So how did you feel when you got your legs blown off? Or, how did it happen? You just -- there's some things you just don't say. >> You don't -- >> Until you know someone really well. >> Right. >> And even then, you -- >> And because so many of our wounded warriors also have PTSD, you have to respect that. You shouldn't ask anybody where'd your legs go? >> Yeah, yeah. >> And, you know, what -- I mean, it's such a huge disrespect. But then if it's something extremely traumatic, like having your legs blown off by an IED, what -- why would you put that -- why would you put that warrior through that? Don't bring that up. Let this person go about their day. They were going about their day just fine without you interfering in it, just for your pleasure. And people will -- people will ask me: Oh, you had a brain injury. Was it traumatic? I'd be like: This conversation's traumatic. Wait, stop. But this is -- here's what you end up practicing when somebody says something that I find extremely intrusive: Awkward! >> That's a good one. >> That's the whole answer. Are you a thalidomide baby? Awkward. >> I'll have to use that one myself sometime. >>Yeah, because it's one thing to say no, no I'm not, and leave. But to point out to them, you made a social faux pas just now. I'm just as much of a person as you are. And you just -- golden rule, here. Do you want people to invade your privacy? No. >> So folks, let that be a lesson to you. You know, Cheryl, we've got a -- in fact most of our viewers don't have disabilities. >> Who are you people? You will. You're a TAB. You're temporarily able-bodied. >> Or a CRAB, currently regarded as able-bodied. >> [Laughs]. [Inaudible]. >> So just treat us like people, for God's sake. >> Yes. Just that, just the people. >> And then when you get to really know us, yeah, well we could talk. >> Then you can treat us like objects. >> Yes. >> As the relationship dictates. But -- I want to say [inaudible]. >> This is candid conversation with Cheryl. >> So, it's always bound -- I'll always end up putting my foot in my mouth. >> Well, this has been fun. >> Yes, it has been fun. And I appreciate conversations about respect, respecting people and respecting people's boundaries and respecting people's humanity. And, yeah -- >> I -- I don't know if it was a good thing -- well, I think it's a good thing. My parents taught me, particularly my mother taught me proper manners when I was young. But now that I'm grown up -- I mean, I don't always practice them, but I can recognize them in other people. And when they make social faux pas, like asking highly personal questions -- >> It's so impolite. And it targets you, because you know they wouldn't have asked you -- they wouldn't have asked you that. Like the guy in Panama, he didn't see your body. >> Right. >> He just saw your head. Didn't make any assumptions about your abilities. >> Yup. >> But then he sees your body. Oh! Things changed. Why? They didn't. >> And look at how -- I'm so happy that he got it. >> Yeah. >> And so, yeah. >> Thank goodness. >> But you know I -- I do enjoy the opportunities with little kids who will say something like, you know: Why can't you move your legs? Or why do you use that? Or that would be fun to ride, or something like that. >> Yeah. >> And some mothers will tell the kids, you know -- that's enough, let's go. But other times they'll let me talk to the kids. And it's a good opportunity to educate them. >> Is that what you like about kids asking? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah, because I don't ever want someone to be afraid of me because I have a disability. I think that it's better that they learn rather than be into like, you know, avoid them. They have a disability. >> That's right. Yeah. And I've heard that from some of my other friends with physical disabilities. When the parents: No, no, no, don't. don't ask them personal questions. You know, don't -- then that child might decide everybody who uses a wheelchair is someone you shouldn't approach. >> Exactly, yeah. >> You're just as likely to be a good friend or a good whatever as anybody else. But when you're young, it's easy to just generalize to everything. Oh, everybody who uses a wheelchair I shouldn't approach. >> Right. >> But people who are standing, I should approach. That's just fine. And that's -- that just segregates us and -- >> But I've learned there are some limits. When I was living in Albuquerque and I would talk to kids there. And I gave the one kid a ride on my lap and I even let him drive my chair. And we were in the street, and there was no traffic so it was no worries. We were driving down the street and he got to a driveway and he drives right up on the side of the beveled curb there. And the chair flips over on its side. And I think the kid was more scared than I was hurt. But still, I like to interact with them. >> So let me ask you a question. What is -- we were just talking about people, stop coming up and saying what's wrong with you. Why don't your legs work? But when kids do it, that's a good opportunity for education. Why -- what is it for you that makes the difference? >> I think kids have -- I automatically believe kids are really trying to learn. They're trying to explore their environment, find out what's going on around them. And they soak up knowledge. They just -- they want to learn everything. But with adults, they've got so many preconceived issues before -- you know, when they're talking to you -- I don't know. I just have more fun with kids. But yeah, it's a really good question because adults have the right to be inquisitive, too, I suppose or be educated. But -- >> They do, but -- >> They shouldn't be making -- they should know better than to ask certain questions. >> Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you hit on several different parts of it, too, that a child is trying to learn. Oh, this seems new. I need to understand what I'm looking at here. This situation is new to me. Whereas, you know, the person who came up and asked you if you were a thalidomide baby has some experience around people with disabilities. And so they've created this box around it. Like you said, the preconceived ideas. And they were just checking, do you fit in my box or not? Whereas a child just like, I need to understand a new situation here. You meet this new person. And it seems less intrusive when a child says I need to learn something new right now than when a person is so presumptuous. Oh, I've seen disabilities before. I know people will tell me all the time: My grandfather was diagnosed with anxiety. I'm like, I actually don't care. >> Right. >> I don't know your grandpa, and I don't have any right to that information. Does your grandpa know you're telling me that? >> Or I broke my leg. I was in a wheelchair for a month. So I know exactly what you're going through. >> I know, Oh. >> Yeah, I don't think so. >> I didn't sleep for a couple nights, you know? I was just really -- because I know exactly what it's like to be cognitively impaired. Oh, my God. Do people actually say, I broke my leg and so I know what it's like? >> Yeah. Yeah. They're trying to find some common ground, something to relate to like as a -- >> But see, you're a person. So there's a huge wealth of things they could explore to find common ground. >> Well, you're right. >> Right? Like why do -- oh, I know exactly -- no you don't. >> I guess they go for the easiest common denominator. I don't know. >> But it's not because being someone who uses a wheelchair every day, there is so much more than just sitting and moving on wheels. There is all the social aspects. There's the discrimination. There's the strangers on the bus talking to you when you are not looking at them and initiating contact and asking for conversation, but just barging in. Employment. There's so much discrimination and stereotype and stigma that goes along with it. >> And I know that every day if someone doesn't show up to get me out of bed, that could be my last day. Because if I'm stuck in bed for a couple days, that's it. It's all over but the crying. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So I know that. The people that break their leg, they can get in and out of the chair, whatever. They don't know that. So if you're looking for common ground or whatever, let's do a beer. >> Let's do a beer. >> Let's get together. >> You like beer? Nice cowboy shirt. Nice pearl snap cowboy shirt. >> There you go. >> Are you from -- actually, are you from Texas? >> Actually, I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. >> You look like a Texan. >> I know, I've got some cowboy hats, too. >> Yeah. And the pearl snaps! Damn! >> But I'm born and bred Cleveland, Ohio. And I love my pirogues and kielbasa and -- >> Mm. I'm actually a native Texan. Did you know that? >> I'm trying to remember. I think you told me that once before and I forgot. But, San Antonio? >> San Antonio. Most people assume New York, because I talk fast and I'm very blunt. >> Yeah. >> But no, I'm a native Texan. And I truly pegged you for a native Texan. >> Really? Wow. >> And I think -- I think it's because -- well the pearl snap shirt just -- but you're super outdoorsy and adventurous. And I just think of the -- you know, just the -- >> The Marlboro Man wishes he was me. >> Yeah [laughs] Yes! And also you've been in Texas for a really long time. >> You know, that reminds me. When talking to kids sometimes they, you know, see my fingers and say, can't you move them? And no, folks, I can't move my fingers at all. But I'll say, well, no. And I can't walk. But there's other things I can do. But like you mentioned, whatever, skydiving or scuba diving or traveling whatever. There's so much you can do. So, just walking is highly over rated. >> Oh, absolutely. I have so much fun borrowing your wheelchair. >> Oh, I'm glad you did. >> [Laughs]. Oh, here's one. So I made a short documentary for a class recently. And the start of the documentary is my good friend Lavaun Heaster. And she is a paper craft artist. She does paper cutouts. >> And you used to make your own cards, right? >> I did. What a great memory. You are clearly not brain injured. All right. >> all right >> Yeah. So she doesn't make her own paper at this point, but she cuts out heavy paper and makes beautiful, beautiful designs and layers them all up so they're tactile. You could enjoy them even if you had low vision or no vision. You could enjoy the art. And she has low vision herself. She sometimes uses the term low vision or legally blind or visually impaired, whatever. So I'm making this film about her, and somebody from the film school where I took my classes asked me one day: Hey, what's your film about? And I'm like, oh, well it's this entrepreneur artist who's legally blind and she does visual arts. And she just goes: How does she do that? She just -- she cuts out paper and lays it all out and it's really beautiful. And I think that person from the film school was saying something about how that's hard or something, which -- I don't know. If you watch Lavaun, it doesn't -- sorry, Lavaun, it doesn't actually look like it's hard for you to do this art. >> People that are highly competent make it look easy. >> Yes. And she makes it look easy. But I was saying something about Lavaun dealing with having an online presence. You know, you've got to have a Facebook business page, you've got to have a Website, you know blast. And the woman just is like: Well how does she do that? How does she use the Internet? And I said: She works really hard. >> There you go. Great answer. >> That's how she does it. She works really hard. And she does it. And this person was so dissatisfied with that answer. She wanted the gruesome details. She wanted information. And she was not happy with the knowledge that Lavaun uses the Internet the same way I use the Internet. But it takes her longer and she works harder than I do. That's actually a truthful answer. She doesn't use a screen reader. >> She doesn't have special assistant technology. >> Nope. I mean, she magnifies what's on the screen. It's huge. And so then she's got to move it around a lot. But that still fits within the answer of, she just works harder. >> it's harder. >> And this person was just not satisfied. And I just thought, I've given you the full answer that you need. Would you like to ask what her art looks like? No, you haven't asked me what her art looks like. But you've asked me how on earth it is that she could possibly use a computer. And I mean, assistive technology has been around for a long time, you know? In the community, you know. You can make some assumptions. Oh, I wonder if she does this or this. But this person was so far out of it, she had no frame of reference. And I just thought, I feel like your questioning is rude. And I don't feel like answering you right now because I'm sort of -- I'm a little bit inflexible and impatient. >> Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. >> And so I was like, I don't want to tell you anything. Wait until the premier and then you can watch her using the computer. >> Right, right. And this is some of the things we show on our Gene and Dave Show. We show -- >> Hi Dave. >> We show how people either actually use the computer to get the information they want and how they interface with the computer. And then we show how people who write programs or Web pages, how they can -- they do -- if they do it correctly, they can make it so much easier for folks with disabilities to read the Web pages or find the information they're looking for. >>That's right. This stuff can be accessible. It really can. I've seen on your site, I think you can click the button that eliminates some of the background stuff and so it's more visually accessible. >> That was high contrast that Cheryl was talking about when she referred to our Web page www.thegeneanddaveshow.com. Our site has a lot of accessibility features. Here we'll toggle on and off the high contrast feature so you can see the difference. This really helps some folks with visual impairments. I want to thank Cheryl Green for joining us. We really enjoyed Cheryl's candid conversation. And in fact, we had to take some breaks in filming because our studio lights were so hot. And I shut off the camera when we took our breaks. But I wish I'd kept it on because Cheryl had so many great stories to tell us. Maybe we'll have her on again later. I'd also like to thank my twin brother Gene, the Quad Father for being here. It was my pleasure, Gene. So long, folks. Until next time. >> This program was made possible from the support of VSA Texas and Amerigroup. ^M00:55:46 [ Music ] ^M00:55:59 >> Rise up Amerigroup ^M00:56:02 [ Music ] ^M00:56:41