[ Silence ] ^M00:00:03 [ Music ] ^M00:00:26 [Dave:] The following program may contain strong language and brief nudity. But don't get your hopes up. After all, this is public access TV. ^M00:00:36 [ Rooster crows ] ^M00:00:39 [Gene:] I'm Gene. [Dave:] And I'm Dave. [Gene and Dave:] And we're The Gene and Dave Show. [Dave:] Hey, thanks for tuning in today to The Gene and Dave Show. Today, we're going to talk a little bit more about the ADA. You know, it's so important for people with disabilities. The ADA has opened up all kinds of new worlds for us. I mean, anything that you do during the day, you go out and go into a restaurant, the chances are that restaurant is accessible because of the ADA and even more important, once you get there, if you can get into the bathroom, well, you can thank the ADA. Anytime you go anywhere in town, public transportation, you know. You take a cab, you ride the bus or as I've been doing, ride the train, we can thank the ADA for that. And a lot of people, a lot of advocates and things, have helped, helped pass the ADA. We want to make sure that they're not forgotten and that that their stories and how we got to where we are today is not forgotten. So, we wanted to do a little bit more on the ADA and research it. Remember, Gene, when I was in New Mexico. I got to talk to Linda Pedro and she told me her story. [Gene:] The true story. [Dave:] The, the, the true story on how the ADA got passed. In fact, you can go to our website at TheGeneAndDaveShow.com and see that video on what Linda said. So, feel free to go check that out. But wait, don't go anywhere. You want to watch this episode first, right, Gene? [Gene:] Absolutely. [Dave:] To find out other, other people that helped pass the ADA, in fact, you, you talked to 1 of them, right? [Gene:] Yeah, I talked to Lex Frieden who's the, known as the architect of the ADA. Lex is a professor of physical medicine and rehab at the University of Texas in Houston. And I said, "Lex, how did you get involved in the ADA?" And this is what Lex had to say. [Lex:] Well, I, I was elected by the President in 1984 to be executive director of the National Council on Disability, and our first task was to survey people with disabilities around the country and determine what they felt the public policy needs were at that time. The council was made up of 15 members appointed by the president. At that time, the chairperson was Sandra Parrino, the vice chairperson was Justin Dart. I served as the executive director. And we led a process that included people from every space and people with every type of disability as well as family members, and we included some service providers and policy makers as well. And we developed a report which was actually due to Congress and the president at the end of January 1986. The name of the report was Toward Independence and the first recommendation we made was that there should be a law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of disability. [Dave:] Gene, in, in all of that, I didn't hear anything about an eagle feather. [Gene:] No, no, none. [Dave:] Or a wing. [Gene:] No, not like the story Linda Predro told us. [Dave:] No, nothing like it. [Gene:] It was quite the difference. But yeah, that's how it got started, during the Reagan administration. They asked them to interview folks around the country and find out what the needs were. So, that's how we got started. And so we, we talked to Lex by phone and then we also interviewed Jim Harrington- [Dave:] Right. [Gene:] With the Texas Civil Rights Project, and we asked them both the same questions. Because we, we've come so far in 24 years since the ADA was passed and we wanted to see where we're going now, so. [Dave:] Right. And Jim is really the, the go-to guy in Austin. [Gene:] Yes. [Dave:] He's helped several people out. You know, I know that he works closely with the folks at ADAPT and also at CTD and advocacy, people that are out there trying to make sure that the ADA stays current, and also make sure that businesses, companies, people are complying to the ADA. [Gene:] That's right. And we asked Jim, well, we asked both of these gentlemen, what's the number 1 issue they hear about in terms of access, and here's their responses. [Jim:] Over the years, we've litigated this. ^M00:05:27 We've covered the bases on virtually every kind of access issue but the 1 that has really emerged, I think, in the last year pretty significantly is the question of interpreters in the courts and in the medical facilities. ^M00:05:42 And that hasn't actually seemed to be quite a big problem around Texas, so. You know, we sort of respond to whatever's going on in the disability community, what the issues are, but we, we've really seen this emerge recently. ^M00:06:00 But there had been a pretty dramatic change. I remember, you know, that we sued the NBA and the Spurs because they didn't have captioning on their Jumbo-trons, right? And now they do. Everybody does. And they figured it was very easy because now all you do is you get a court reporter and the court reporter is actually writing in real time. ^M00:06:21 Even though the reporter is doing shorthand, it comes up on the screen in real time. So, that's really good. You can hire a court reporter then to do the games. And you see that happen. You see that happening. ^M00:06:34 [Gene:] And I think that helps more than just people who are hearing impaired. It's something I would find useful. ^M00:06:40 [Jim:] Yeah. I find it useful, you know. ^M00:06:42 Because sometimes you're in places like, if you're in an airport or maybe even having a beer, and you can't hear, you know, and then all of a sudden there's kind of a bulletin and you can't hear it, but you can read it, all right? ^M00:06:54 Or sometimes it's important to get what's the exact context. Maybe the President's saying something and you want to make sure you're getting the right context also. It does help everybody, there's no doubt about it, and, and you know, you think about that, you know, that that's how it actually, they have juries now, you know, for, for folks, you know, the court reporter, the juror who's sitting in the jury box can actually read the testimony as it's happening. ^M00:07:20 So, the technology is utterly amazing. You know, that we happen to be in the right time, I think, for a lot of these accessible, accessibility issues. It's just going to take a while, you know, because the, the web has grown, has exploded, you know, and you have so much more stuff up than ever before, but you see, you know, a lot of struggle going on to make the adaptations. I've noticed that, you know, I was doing research last night, I had some legal stuff. ^M00:07:50 But I was going to regular non-legal publications but quite a bit of that was going to be accessible to people, you know, that might not be able to read. So, it's coming along. It's never, nothing's ever going to be as good as you want or as fast as you want, but I tell you, I mean, it's just, the, the progress that they should give people hope. And I think it's always really helpful to have people who have creativity, you know, people have ideas about how to do this. You know, it's out there and I think we could make good use of that creativity. ^E00:08:29 ^B00:08:33 [Lex:] Well, I just, I'm not sure I can pinpoint that. Gene, we're actually doing a research study which will be completed by the 25th anniversary of the ADA, intended to answer that question. ^M00:08:52 But, from my standpoint now, the biggest challenge we have is maintaining some degree of advocacy among the disability community. So many people with disabilities, now younger people, have grown up in an environment where there wasn't so much discrimination as there was when those of us worked together to get the ADA passed. ^M00:09:16 And so the younger people now, I don't believe are quite as motivated as we were to work advocacy-type issues. That makes it more difficult for us to do the kind of fine-tuning that may be necessary with the ADA. They did, however, have a great achievement when the ADA amendments act was passed and the benefit of that act was to clarify the definition of ADA for certain groups that have disabilities as a result of limitations to bodily function. ^M00:09:51 So, with the passage of the ADA amendments act and the enactment of that law, we are now able to, people who have had cancer, people with other types of disabilities caused by hidden impairment, are now protected by the ADA. So, that was significant. And, I believe now that the biggest challenge we have is updating some of the regulations and requirements. Let me give you an example. When the ADA was enacted, the barrier for it was supposed to create standards, and they did so. And among the standards they created were those pertaining to parking for people with disabilities and they established certain formulas that dictate the number of spaces there should be in a lot of a certain size. At this point, there are more people than ever before who have the right to use these spots. Many aging people, elderly people, are getting the handicapped parking tags from their doctors and, and they are using these spots at a higher rate than ever before. So now people with disabilities who are mobility impaired, have their own vehicles, are finding it very difficult to go shopping because they can't find a parking space where they could get in and out of their wheelchairs. You need extra space, obviously- [Gene:] Right. [Lex:] To load and unload from a van or a car, and there simply aren't enough slots available. That, to me, indicates the formula needs to be updated. And I'm sure that applies not only to parking spaces to an array of other kinds of accommodations that have changed, the requirements have changed as a result of the demographics and the environment. [Gene:] That was interesting. Lex said they're doing a study on it and they should know by the ADA anniversary what the number 1 issue is, but he was also saying he, his real concern is there isn't as much advocacy as there was, say, when you and I were growing up. [Dave:] Yeah, people just aren't talking about it anymore. I mean, it's, it's out there. I mean, there's, you know, places are accessible now, but every place is accessible? [Gene:] Not every place. [Dave:] I don't know. I mean, there, there are still some hang-ups here and there and, you know, if people don't voice their opinion and, and talk about access issues and things that they need, they won't get done as they did 20-some years ago. [Gene:] Exactly. Now, when we asked Jim what he thought the number 1 issue was, he talked about interpreters, the need for interpreters in hospitals and in courtrooms and so what we figured out is the main access issue could be regional. Depending on where you're at in the state or the country, the focus or the, the access need could be quite different. [Dave:] It might be. [Gene:] We also asked, we also asked these gentlemen if they think we need to change the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, or the ADAAG, which is the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines, which are really the regulations that say how the ADA is to be implemented. [Dave:] A lot of people get those confused. [Gene:] They do. I, even I do sometimes. [Dave:] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. [Gene:] And this is, this is what they suggested. [Lex:] Yeah, Gene, I believe the old theories of ADAAG provisions needs to be reviewed top to bottom. I think the type of switches and, and controllers is an issue. I, I don't believe that people with short stature were involved as they should've been in the original development of those ADA guidelines. And I can tell you that people of short stature have a really hard time using the seats in the bathrooms and reaching the buttons on elevators and so on because these guidelines really didn't take into account the significant number of people with dwarfism in this country. So, there's another wobble. Another example, Gene, relates to the use of stairs. Back when the ADA guidelines were developed originally in 1990 and shortly thereafter, not very many people with disabilities used the theaters, but now many people do. And again, this is partly a function of demographics, older people who are becoming mobility impaired are moved toward scooters before they get to the point of requiring wheelchairs. So, the standards for bathroom radius and so on, turning radius and so on, don't really include the scooters, and, and, you know, I, I, you know, development of the internet, computer technology, there's standards that relate to our access to touch screens for example that may need to be updated given new developments. [Jim:] Well, I, I think so. I think the big question has to be, you know, I travel a lot. I, I see this everywhere, is the door access issue. Both in signage and in the availability of the button or the whatever it is that's going to give, set off the signal or the intercom, right? And, and sometimes where that's placed is not clear. ^M00:16:06 You know, sometimes you might have the door and it might be around the corner or might be too high or it might be too far, set too far away that it's not clear or close to the door. ^M00:16:15 [Dave:] I've had that happen where I pushed the button and then I didn't make it over to the door before it- [Gene:] Fast enough, yeah. [Dave:] And I'm pretty quick. ^M00:16:21 [Gene:] Yeah. So, I mean, that is, that's is a problem, right. And, and hopefully the folks, you know, that are drafting ADAAG will pay attention to that issue as we go along. ^M00:16:35 [Gene:] Also we, we asked if do we need to review accommodations for visual, folks with visual and hearing impairments? And I asked this because when the ADA was passed before the web, you know, a lot of you young folks out there, the web wasn't always here and the ADA was passed before the web was created. So, once the web was created and, say, folks with visual impairments wanted to use it, say, to make plane reservations or buy something on Amazon, you know, they, they had trouble doing it because there just were no regulations. [Jim:] Yeah, I think the web clearly, obviously, is the big issue, right? And it takes a lot, I think, to develop the technology that is needed but I think it's coming along. It's, you know, not, all of this stuff never happens as fast as we want it to happen. [Lex:] Yeah, the ADA amendment did in fact strengthen the ADA coverage of the web act and so on and if you recall, there is a section 508 in the original ADA that relates to that. Even though the internet was not a major factor at the time the ADA was passed, computer technology was developing quickly then and we did anticipate some of what occurred. So, the 508 section was important and the problem there has been that there's not a lot of the companies that make computers and accessories and software that pay attention to the fine print in the regulations. So, you get a lot of stuff that's manufactured and produced and by the time we get around to filing complaints and having those complaints heard and resolution to the problems, they've got another generation of software or hardware or whatever out there so it's hard to keep up with, with that. And I think the manufacturers and developers need to be more cognizant of the needs of people with disabilities. You know, the biggest issue there probably that you can think of would be that pertaining to the smart phones. You've got all the competitors in the market, you've got Apple producing iProducts, you've got Windows phone and Samsung, and huge market of smartphones with computers built into them. The software that people are making for that, much of it is being made by kids at home who put this- [Gene:] Yeah. [Lex:] Stuff on the App stores and, and I guarantee you that more than half of that stuff is probably not in compliance with section 508 standards and in fact, some will even claim that those standards don't apply to smartphone apps, which, by the way, I think they do, but nonetheless, there's a lot of people with disabilities who try to use the, this new technology that are basically shut out because either the hardware's not sufficiently well developed or the software doesn't work for them. ^M00:20:14 If you try, for example, the Apple product that has a wonderful speech-to-text- [Gene:] Oh, yes, yes. [Lex:] Built into it, you know, that, that only works for certain hooks that are built into the operating system for the, for the iPhone. And the same thing, then, is true for the Android devices on the Windows phone. They're variable in terms of how well they function and whether they actually hit all the buttons, so to speak, and it's, you know, here's a area that, that needs to be, needs to have more oversight, I think. [Gene:] Lex was talking about information technology, requirements for information technology to be accessible and even though they didn't name specific technology, they just said information technology had to be accessible, so. [Dave:] Right. [Gene:] They never really named it. [Dave:] And while it's not in the ADA, there are a lot of guidelines and things that have, have come out since then to help get, enforce some of the websites but a few people, federal agencies, things like that, are, or it's enforced that they must comply to those standards but you know, businesses like Amazon, for example, they are, there are no laws for that. [Gene:] And in, I wanted to bring Jeff Moyer in on this. Jeff has, has been on a previous show. Jeff has a visual impairment and he was partner in a group that developed a type of technology called RIAS, R I A S, remote infrared audible signage. And here's the way it works. You carry around a hand unit and say you're going through an airport terminal, and it'll say, bathrooms on your left, cafeteria 50 feet up ahead on your right, whatever. So he, he could completely navigate an airport or, or anywhere where this remote infrared audible signage is at. But unfortunately, it, it's not a mature technology yet and we couldn't get it across the board, couldn't require it in all cities. But here's, here's how Jeff describes it. [Jeff:] Remote infrared audible signage, RIAS, and this is technology invented in a federally funded rehabilitation engineering center in San Francisco. And they were able to get over 1,000 signs put in San Francisco. The San Francisco board of supervisors said every public building will have at least a sign at the door so you know what the building is, and they completely signed public, that their public city hall rather, the, the main library, convention center, a number of intersections, a number of shopping areas. It's, it's, but you know, you, you have these islands of accessibility, and then it's gone. So, people, are people going to be inclined to carry a receiver around, hoping to find the sign? No. So, set places like airports are perfect for this. I'm blind, they know I'm blind and need assistance, they give me a receiver. Independently I navigate the airport. When I get on the airplane, I give them the receiver back. And we were, we spent 5 years on what we call it the airport strategy, and at the end of that time, we had O'Hare and Reagan and, let's see, LAX and there were 2 others. And the president of the company worked on was in World Trade Center on September 10, 2001. At that meeting, they decided to put it in La Guardia, so we have 5 major airports in the United States and the head of the Airport Commission for the Port Authority of New York went to Washington to meet with senator, or secretary of, of transportation to answer the question how do you make accessible, airports accessible to blind people? And that morning, September 11th, instead of having that meeting, they were watching the World Trade Centers be hit. And the World Trade Center, the Towers, and in that was lost not only many of the people in the meeting but signing New York's bus stations and airports. And at that point, at that point the entire airport strategy we had spent 5 years on collapsed because airports then had 1 issue, that was security. And if it didn't follow security, they weren't going to do it. [Gene:] And then I mentioned it to Lex- [Dave:] Wow, that's cool stuff. [Gene:] And, and Lex said, Lex recalls seeing this in another country. Here's what Lex said. [Lex:] Seeing that technology is so cool. I stayed, or had the opportunity a few years ago, to stay a week at a facility, actually it was kind of a resort park that was used for executive training in Sweden outside of Stockholm a ways. And this park was fully equipped for accommodations for people with disabilities, including those who are blind. And this was a huge multi-acre, probably 100-acre park area with motel-style buildings on it for trainings with the big auditoriums. They had a lake there with a place where the people attending conferences could recreate. They had all kind of spaces in this large park and everything was marked and they included these auditory audible signals. But I'll tell you what, walking through the park and all of a sudden you've got about 6 of these things calling after you, telling you which way to turn for that, it's a little bit confusing. I think you had to practice awhile before you understood really which direction you wanted to go. Because it was fantastic. But I think as far as having a visual impairment and using that kind of a facility, it was, you know, perhaps the way of the future. That technology has not penetrated in the United States and, and frankly it's not everywhere in Europe yet, but that's progress. That's something that we see on the horizon. Another example of that has to do with, with, with museums where there are signs that represent what is on the picture and there's no auditory or kind of report about what that piece of art is. Some museums now are coming up to date with that. There are other exhibits in museums where there are, in fact, auditory explanations but they don't have the technology that deaf people can use to hear what's being said in these auditory presentations. So, that's another area where technology is just now developing and maturing to the point where it will soon be widespread. [Gene:] Yeah, so, so Lex was saying, Wow, what a great experience but it, it, he got so many signals coming in, he heard so much information, he, it took awhile to figure out exactly what was going on for him. [Dave:] It just became too noisy. [Gene:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he really enjoyed it. And then we talked about when we interview Jim and you, you mentioned the Austin visibility ordinances and we talked about- [Dave:] It's a pretty hot topic these days. [Gene:] Yeah, accessible housing. We talked about why doesn't the ADA address housing issue, because right now the FHA addressing housing issues. [Dave:] It's a hot topic here. Mr. Harrington is here locally and also with the laws is the visibility laws, of making sure that house builders build their homes there are a few things there, have an accessible entrance and that a ^M00:29:19 person in a wheelchair can maneuver from the front to the back, that there's a restroom accessible. And I've been on, you know, several meetings and, ^M00:29:28 and talked to people about that and 1 of the questions I get to me is well, didn't, doesn't the ADA already cover things like that? But actually the ADA doesn't cover housing. What, what do you think about that? Should it cover housing or is there, is there really a reason that it doesn't? ^M00:29:49 [Jim:] Well, I'm sure the reason that it doesn't is because the economic interests at play here, right? The, I mean, it would be a lot easier in terms of access if ADA applied the housing or the fair housing act had ADA standards, 1 way or the other, so that you could go ahead and litigate if you needed to under 1 way or the other. ^M00:30:15 And, you know, you're watching what happens in Austin every time it come, you know, ^M00:30:20 it's come up in city council about how many houses should be accessible in a new development and all that kind of stuff, I mean, I don't quite understand why people fight it so hard. ^M00:30:31 I mean, I think the reality ought to be we should just move to making all housing accessible as we go along. I mean, what's the problem with that? ^E00:30:41 ^B00:30:45 [Lex:] Well, well, Gene, a lot of people find that confusing. So, the ADA as far as apartments are concerned, applies only to the public spaces. So, if you're, if you're looking at a, at an apartment and you're not able to get around in the spaces between the buildings, if you can't get to the pool, if you can't get to the leasing office, if there's no parking in the public area, if you can't get through the bathroom door in the commons area, if you can't use the facilities in the recreation area and so on, then, then the ADA applies. On the other hand, if there are access issues inside the individual unit, for example the bathroom door's not wide enough, there's not enough turning radius in the closet or in the bathroom, you can't get next to the stove or the switches aren't placed in a way that you can reach them, all those kinds of issues which are very real issues and real access issues, are not covered by the ADA because they're inside individual units. They, on the other hand, are covered by the Fair Housing Act and that act, by the way, was passed and implemented about 2 years before the ADA. So, the Fair Housing Act does cover the apartment and requires that certain accommodations be provided in those apartments. [Gene:] Would, would it be fair to say the FHA could probably use a re-examination as well in terms of their standards? [Lex:] I think their standard - I've actually looked at that quite recently and written a paper about it that has yet to published, Gene. It will be soon. But they, the standards and sort of the [inaudible] HUD uses to implement the Fair Housing Act as far as access is concerned, are quite friendly to you and to other mobility-impaired people. I mean, I think they are pretty up to date. [Gene:] We talked about why doesn't the ADA address housing issue because right now, the FHA addresses housing issues, and Jim Harrington said it's a matter of economics. [Dave:] Right. [Gene:] And Lex was saying that the FHA is really disability friendly. But I don't know, do you think it's all right the way it is? Because I think I'd prefer to have the ADA handle the housing. I'll, I'll give you an example why. I tried to get an apartment here in town and the, the bathroom sink just wasn't accessible. And I said, Well, listen, if I take this apartment, can you make that sink accessible for me? And they said, Well, it is. I says, I can't use it. "Well, it meets FHA requirements." And indeed it did. But I remember, we went round town looking at hotels and the ADA requirements on sinks and bathrooms and bed heights and all that, wow. That was so helpful. [Dave:] Very different. [Gene:] Yeah, yeah. So, I'd prefer to see the ADA regulate the housing apartments and such. But Lex was saying too that while the ADA may be concerned with the sidewalks and the parking whereas the FHA is concerned with the actual buildings' units, it gets confusing. Makes my head swim, but. [Dave:] It does. Anything makes your head swim, Gene. [Gene:] But maybe as the ADA evolves and we get people out there with some advocates, we'll, we'll see about changing the law. [Dave:] Sure. [Gene:] Number 1, we're writing regulations to try to keep up with the technology. Let's say I have a piece of technology that will, I, I believe will benefit a large group of people with disabilities. How do I provide input to someone that is working on, say, amendments to the ADA to, to get them to include this technology or at least address it? And then I suppose a second question would be how do we enforce the ADA then with all this technology coming up that's just not accessible? [Lex:] Well, yeah, those are 2 questions. First of all, if you have technology that relates to electronic devices, the go-to agency there is the FCC. And the FCC actually does have an office that works on 508-related issues. Now, I don't believe they have enough staffing to, to review all of the prospective new technology that is offered. In the area of smartphones, here's an example where there's a disconnect. They actually do approve every smartphone device in the United States before it can be sold in the United States. And yet, they don't review that technology well enough to determine whether or not it meets the 508 requirements. So, there's a lot of phones that get through the FCC with approval that would not get through a review by the architectural and transportation barriers for compliance board or through review by the justice department. And yet at the FCC is responsible for that. So, you know, if you have a device, if you have technology, then FCC is probably the place where the connection needs to be made. But again, I think they're probably understaffed and they have a lot of work to do. The agency that is the best in terms of oversight, the 1 that has the most responsibility at least as far as the kinds of things we're talking about concerning Title 3 issues and Title 5 issues is generally the Department of Justice. And they are doing a very good job trying to keep up with new developments, but they have yet to really put a footprint on the compliance with new technology. I think that there's probably somebody in the Department of Justice who's investigating this as we speak. Compliance as far as employment's concerned falls to the EEOC and again, the EEOC has been very good at keeping up with rules and regulations pertaining to workers and employment. And they actually have added some rules that pertain to accommodations that are necessarily provided by employers for people with disabilities in the workplace. So that, that has helped a great deal, and it has had some influence on the larger technology providers for the government. And influence, you know, a mishmash of agencies involved and issues involved. [Gene:] And then we asked him how can somebody remedy an access issue on their own. What, what's the first step? [Lex:] There's, I think there's several things you could do. First of all, I think remember, hard to, it's hard for people, I think. You just go to whoever's responsible and say, Look, this is an issue for me and, you know, is there anything you could do to fix it? And if they say, You know, that's going to cost too much and we're really not obliged to do it, then you pull the ADA card and say, Well, excuse me but I do believe you're obliged to do it. You know, it's my understanding that that's covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act. And then, you know, see if that softens them up a little. I would never hit with that first but, you know, you could see if that rings a bell with them. It may not, and if it doesn't, then you could file a complaint with the justice department or, depending on what the issue is, filing with the local oversight authority. With housing, there may be a local housing agency that can take a complaint. With transportation, there may be a local transit agency in the state. There may be a not-for-profit organization like in Texas, we have the Disabled Rights Center of Texas and then, you know, again depending on what the issue is, but with employment related you can file a complaint with the EEOC. If it's title 3 related, you can file a complaint with the justice department and furthermore, if you're not sure whether you're on firm ground with your concern, I mean, Gene, there are a lot of conveniences that people like, you might even need, that may not be covered by the ADA. And so I think it's not fair for people with disabilities just to assume that every challenge they face can be resolved through enforcement of the ADA. ^M00:40:19 Some challenges we as people with disabilities just have to live with and nobody's discriminating against simply because we find it to be a challenge. If it is ADA related, the obviously somebody's responsible for resolving the issue. 1 way to sort of clarify that is to phone 1 of the ADA technical assistance centers. The ADA centers share a common number and that's 800-949-4232. And we direct, I direct the southwest ADA center. We have a staff of attorneys and paralegals who respond to phone calls at that number during working hours and we get calls from people with disabilities, family members. We get calls from, calls from school administrators who are trying to determine if they're obliged to meet the requirements of the law, from, we get calls from architects, we get calls from builders and from service providers. We get calls from a lot of people who are strictly not certain whether the ADA covers their issue or 1 that somebody's complaining about. And we'll give them advice about that. Again, the number, anywhere in the United States, is 800-949-4232. And the southwest ADA center covers Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, New Mexico and Arkansas, but there's a center that covers each region and people at those centers will be glad to help anybody clarify what their issue is. The ADA centers folks take complaints. They don't resolve complaints unless there's some, something they can do quickly and easily, negotiating an issue between 2 like-minded people. But the ADA center's main objective is to provide technical assistance about the ADA and help clarify what the requirements are. [Gene:] Wow. [Jim:] One is sometimes people talk to the person and show them the regs, that that works. ^M00:42:32 Sometimes a little direct action, you know, like having all your friends show up at their business in wheelchairs, for example, has a good effect. And sometimes you need to bring a lawsuit. 1 of the things that we did is that we actually developed a manual ^M00:42:50 about how people can bring their own lawsuit so you don't really have to go find a lawyer to handle the cases. Although we certainly like to handle the cases, I mean, we have a ADA campaign every year in July. But, you know how you can basically fill out the form and file the case and what the steps are and all that, so. ^M00:43:13 [Gene:] And then we got the Texas Civil Rights Project, web page, the phone number 512-474-5073. ^M00:43:23 [Jim:] Right, exactly. [Gene:] We'll put that out on our page. ^M00:43:26 [Dave:] And it's right there at the bottom of your screen. Hey, look at that. Wow. That popped right up there. That's great. ^M00:43:32 Or you can also go to the Gene and Dave Show website and go to the show notes and see it there. ^M00:43:38 [Gene:] Excellent. Jim, thank you so much for spending time with us. We appreciate it. ^M00:43:41 [Jim:] My pleasure. I'm happy to do it. Keep up the good work. And our door is always open for folks that want to do a little litigation. We're certainly happy to oblige. ^M00:43:51 [Dave:] All right, well thank you again. [Jim:] You're quite welcome. ^M00:43:54 [Gene:] Folks that want more information about you, they can go to www.lexfrieden.com. We'll also post the address for the southwest center. I'm sorry, give us the name 1 more time on that? ^M00:44:17 [Lex:] The Southwest ADA Center and the number is 800-949-4232. And we'd be glad for anybody to call and we'll try to help them. ^M00:44:28 [Dave:] So, anyway, if you want to know about what, is this an ADA law or, you know, or, or, you know, you're really upset about not having enough parking spaces in a business that you go to, you know you can always find out, first of all search the internet and if it's, if it's worth the fight, you know, be an advocate. Definitely speak up or, you know, call 1 of these guys. ^M00:44:53 [ Silence ] ^M00:45:00 [Lex:] I think that, that, you know, it's time, Gene, to make a, kind of an overall review of the requirements and the guidelines. I think the ADA itself is still a good law and will be for many years because it's a statement of principle more than it is a prescription. And, and that's purposeful. I mean, we didn't want to make it a listing of what you had to do otherwise we'd have to update it every 2, 3, 4 years. So, the ADA is intended to be a statement of principle and it will, the rule of the implementation strategies will change depending on the demographics and, and on the capabilities to do certain things. I mean, we talked here today about a number of technological improvements that can be made and how, ways in which technology can do things more easily than we could've done it in the past. [Gene:] I think the, the last thing we should touch on is Lex was saying that the ADA is a statement of principle. And, and we're saying that access is a civil right. Interestingly, interestingly enough, at this past civil rights summit here in Austin where several presidents attended, people with disabilities were not welcome. It took a lot advocacy, a lot of effort, to get us to make a showing there. They, they did finally acquiesce and they invited Lex to come speak there. But interesting. [Dave:] That's, that's amazing. [Gene:] So, where do we go from here? I guess we need more advocacy. [Dave:] I guess we do. [Gene:] So, let's get out there then and keep evolving and make things happen. [Dave:] We should. And, and if you're interested, we have a lot of awesome advocacy groups here in Austin. In fact, they've, they've been on previous shows, you know, and I know that the folks over at CTD would love to hear from people that, you know, need any help advocating anything. They would, you know, love to help you and you could help them, you know, show up to the capitol. [Gene:] Yeah. [Dave:] And talk to your senators, legislators, you know, and have you voice heard. You know, the other group that's in town is ADAPT, here in Austin. Another grassroots organization where if you want to fight the fight, go talk to Bob Kafka, Stephanie and all the folks over at ADAPT. They, they would love to talk to you. [Gene:] So, help us evolve the ADA to become better to better fit our needs, and we'll look forward to, to working with you on that. [Dave:] Absolutely. [Gene:] All right, then. [Dave:] And don't forget to check out The Gene and Dave Show on the web at theGeneAndDaveShow.com. You can find this episode and also a summary of the show on the summaries page, which will have some awesome links for you on how to find the things and more information about what we've talked about here today. But until then, we'll see you next time and we'll be sure to bring another exciting topic into your home. [Gene:] So long, folks. [Dave:] Bye now. This program was made possible from the support of VSA of Texas and Amerigroup. ^M00:48:39 [ Music ] ^M00:48:52 Rise up, Amerigroup. ^M00:48:55 [ Music ] ^M00:49:37 [ Silence ]